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Dr. Anthony Ojukwu, SAN, is the Executive Secretary/CEO, National Human Rights Commission, NHRC. In an exclusive interview at the Abuja headquarters of the Commission, he told African Leadership Scorecard Editorial Team that there was an urgent need for government at all levels and leaders in the private sector to work together towards addressing the hardship being faced by Nigerians as well as other inequalities, including violation of human rights such as child abandonment, child abuse, domestic violence, rape, extortion, extra-judicial killing and others.

He disagreed with the suggestion that human rights abuses are on the rise in the country but averred instead, that effective mechanisms designed and being implemented by the Commission under his watch are responsible for the huge exposure of right violations whenever and wherever they happen, stating that the capacity of officers of the Commission to track right offenders and expose them, was more of a revolution. He also attributed successes recorded in the fight against human rights abuses to the use of technology-driven approach as can be testified to by the monthly dashboard revelations on human rights violations introduced by his administration.

Ojukwu also spoke on condition of prisoners and prison decongestion, the relationship between the military, police, DSS and other security agencies with the civil populace, saying while it is a matter of MUST to protect the rights of citizens, the Commission equally condemns attacks on security officers and men by civilians, as according to him, there would be anarchy in the society if there are no police and other security agents, who he said are also citizens that deserve equal rights and justice. He spoke to the Publisher/CEO- Bonaventure Phillips Melah, Deputy News Editor- Francesca Hangeior and Senior Cameraman- Daniel Olu-Ojo.

Excerpts:

Q – What is the level of grassroots sensitisation on rights of citizens especially, by state offices of the Commission?

A- If you look at where we are coming from, a situation where we did not have any state office and you can imagine if there is no state office in any state, you cannot think of doing anything. Now, we have been able establish offices at the state level. With the presence of our offices there, it has led to an increased level of sensitisation and awareness at the grassroots.

They may not have all that is required to work, for instance, vehicles to be up and doing at the local government level but we will get there. So, yes, you can say the states offices need to do more but you can also see that the presence of the state offices has really improved the capacity of the Commission in the entire country. You will recall during the sixteen days of activism the whole state offices of the Commission were on the street. That’s a lot. Creating awareness, visiting traditional rulers, religious institutions, legislators, offices of governors and wives of the governors, states chief judges’ etc. and also working with the civil societies as well as the Nigerian Bar Association, NBA to create awareness around these issues.

We also visit the prison and police cells in all the states on monthly basis. That was not possible when we were not in all the states because we would have led our team leaving from here to visit the states. Now we have resident offices in all the states that visit the police detention centres and the prisons on monthly basis. So, yes, maybe we are not able to be in all the market places to see the women, motor parks or embark on town hall meetings in all the local government areas, but I believe that we are making impact at the state level.

Q- Cases of human rights abuses seem to be on the rise, why is it so?

A. Human rights violations have always been there, let’s not forgot. The problem is we shouldn’t forget where we were coming from, the period of the ‘Military Rule’ and as a result of long period of military rule, we accepted these violations as a way of life. I can tell you that maybe in my village, if someone is arrested and is taken to the police, the next thing, people will start gathering money to go and bail the person. It was taken as a normal thing. But now, we are creating awareness on such issues, to say that this is wrong. If this happens to you, come and report. So, what has happened is not an increase to the number of violations but the Commission has been able to put in the mechanism to discover these violations and now get them documented and reported. The more our efficiency in doing that, the more violations are discovered and incorporated into the database. The violations are not increasing. We have like domestic violence, sexual and gender- based violence, rape, these things have been there with us as long as the country existed. Now, at the village level, these things are settled. Maybe, religious leaders or the traditional leaders. They settle it at family levels without taking into consideration the interest of the victim or the survivor. They always suffer. However, what has happened now, we are revolutionising the system because of the measures we have put in place to make people realise that what they were used to doing is not the right way, it’s not normal. We let them realise that they can get justice. People are now coming forward, the things they used to accept as normal, they have discovered their voices. Their voices were lost but now, they are able to come and partner with the Commission. That is why it seems as if we are discovering more violations that have been existing.

Q – From what you have explained, is it right to say that Nigeria is making progress in the fight against rights abuse?

Of course! Because the first step towards solving a problem is identifying the problem. The idea about these things is that they help us to program, they help us to advice the government; they help us to advice the Civil Society Organisations on what to do. Maybe there is a community that incidences of domestic violence have been going on for several years and nobody ever knew. So, in programing and planning, nobody will think of going to tell the women or men there on the evil of such things. But when it is discovered, they become part of reforms that stakeholders need to divert their attention to. Therefore, I can say that we are making progress because we are getting to the nook and cranny. We are not even yet there but every day, I can see progress in our work and I get fulfilled.

Q – Talking about getting access to justice, we acknowledge the Commission’s landmark achievements on compensation of persons whose rights were violated. The concern here is, after the cash compensation, what happens to the perpetrators of such acts. Are your hands tied in the area of meting out punishment?

A- Our hands are not tied, in-fact, our powers have even been increased. The human right work is in different ways. It also recognised the separation of powers and the various functions of the other arms of government. We are supposed to work in collaboration with other arms of government. We cannot do everything, our laws says that if in the course of work, we discover anything that requires prosecution, don’t forget, prosecution of crimes and criminal cases is the jurisdiction of the Honourable Attorney General of the Federation. The Commission is not going to take away those powers from what has been given to him by the constitution of the country. Our Act says, if there is a human right violation, some human rights violation also constitute crime. If you take away somebody’s life, if you kill him, it becomes murder. When that happens, the Commission cannot come and start prosecuting the person for murder. You hand him over to the Attorney General whose responsibility in the constitution is to prosecute. However, if it is a civil matter and the matter is in court, there is provision in our law that we can express interest that this is a human rights matter and as a friend of the court, we want to join in the proceeding to ensure that human right is prosecuted along the process.

Human rights violations statutorily also have remedies. Even in the constitution, for instance, if you detain somebody beyond the constitutional period, the person is entitled to damages. Such civil remedies, the commission can award compensation like you saw in the ‘#EndSars’ protest. Now, coming to the ‘#EndSars’ issues which we are saying that yes, we have seen the compensation and that goes to the shared responsibility in the filing. For instance, some people were supposed to be prosecuted, some people were supposed to be disciplined in terms of demotion in rank, dismissal, etc. The police service commission is responsible for disciplining police officers. Those people were referred to the appropriate agencies. Some were referred to the state attorneys general and at the point in time, some of these bodies will call us for more evidence like the original case file. So, I believe action is going on at various levels. The police service commissions also wrote to us during the time of Solomon Arase that they were in the custody of our representation and were also taking the necessary steps to deal with the matter.

Q- What further steps do you take to ensure that security agents who violate the rights of citizens are punished?

A- We monitor. Monitoring is, we keep reminding them. We make sure that this is not swept under the carpet and the answers I gave you are as a result of constant monitoring of the agencies where the cases are referred to. When we make enquiries, they always answer us to explain that this is where we are. We believe them and we think that action is going on in such issues.

Q- Issues concerning the 2023 general elections. There were some politically exposed persons fingered to have said and done things that they were not supposed to do. The commission also hammered on those issues. Can we know the position of things in this regard?

A- We are looking at the issue of hate speeches, violence and profiling of people. Now, the issue of prosecuting violation falls on electoral acts and are actually with the Independent National Electoral Commission, INEC. The electoral body has said that the work of conducting election is enough for them. That these other criminal aspects are a big challenge to them and called out for the establishment of an independent election tribunals to deal with these criminal aspects. They are working with the police to deal with all these issues. But we have done our report and we have brought the attention to take other necessary steps. This is also an opportunity to call on government to revisit Justice Uwais’s panel report which said that there should be an independent panel to look at election related offences which have a been major setback in our electoral system. Maybe, the reasons for setting it up are obvious, politicians are the decision makers and the politically exposed persons we are talking about, the big-time politicians who are holding positions in the either in the Senate, House of Representative. If you set up these panel, the implication will be a kind of the law catching up with them. They may be the ones opposing it.

Q- Any possibility of special courts?

A.- We have been calling for the establishment of a special court for the prosecution of electoral offences for a long time now. If you look at all the Justice Uwais’s recommendations, almost all of the suggested things have been implemented. Why is this one not implemented? Like I’m saying, this is also an opportunity for me to call out on government to do the needful. We need to make progress.

Q- What is your take on the uproar currently ongoing in Kenya?

kenya is a reaction to bad governance. That is what Kenya is all about. The way a people are genetically made up reflect in the way they also react to things. Kenyans fought for their independence. They fought the white for their independence, so their threshold to accommodate these things is not as elastic as that of Nigeria. That is the advantage our politicians are taking because they know that Nigerians tolerate a lot. The lesson again from Kenya, one of the things that made it difficult for Nigerians to rise and fight for their right is because we are divided on religious and tribal line which is also in Kenya. The common denominator is the poverty that is ravaging the people. I will urge the politicians to take advantage of the patience of Nigerians to make the necessary corrections. The right is not to continue to refuse to do anything because you think Nigerians will continue forever to be indolent; no. it could happen that what is happening in Kenya will snap and what is happening in Kenya will happen in Nigeria. However, we don’t pray for that to happen here. We would want to correct our mistakes before it will get to that point.

Q- Assuming it happens in Nigeria, as a human rights boss, how will you want government to handle it?

A- Well, something similar has happened, ‘TheEndSars’. So, what you should be asking is, how did we handle the end EndSars situation? For me, why I don’t want that to happen is because it will throw up a lot of human rights issues. When there is crisis, all the protection guides are let on the loose and it will create more job for me which is what I don’t want. I’m already overwhelmed by the one I am handling already. If there is crisis now, it will worsen the situation for me. I would like to play the role of de-escalating the situation if it happens, I would like to play the role of mediating between protesters and government, and we want to make sure that their genuine concerns are listened to by the government and also make sure that their rights are not violated because they have the right to protest. It’s going to be a very difficult role but I will have no choice than to do it because if I don’t, people’s rights are going to be violated and that is not good for the record of Nigeria.

Q- What measures has the commission put in place to protect rights of security agents who sometimes also suffer abuse from civilians?

A- It is very bad for citizens to start attacking security agents. The truth is, if there is break down of law and order, nobody will be spared. The poor man will die, the rich man will die. So, if somebody has put his life on the line to make sure that as you left your house this morning, you will be able to go back today, don’t take that for granted. We need the security agents alive so that they can also protect us. Having said that, we cannot resort to extra judicial killing of law enforcement agents because they also are implicated in the extra judicial killing against the citizens. In most cases, it’s the innocent people that end up losing their lives. For instance, look at case that happened in Asaba. The Army officers that were killed, what was the criteria in killing some of the police men that were killed in Ebonyi State? There was no label on their faces that they were the guilty police officers. So, we need to do everything it takes to avoid breakdown of law and order because if it happens, there is a saying in my place that you shouldn’t throw stone into a market place, you don’t know whether the day you will do that is the day your grandmother will be at the market and the stone will hit her head. So, there is the need to ensure that our law enforcement officers are protected as well as the citizens. They should also do their best to ensure that the rights of citizens are respected.

Q – What is the condition of prisoners across the nation’s correctional centres especially, those unjustly detained?

A- We visit the correctional facilities every month. We have a report every month which talks about our visits to the prison. We have now been recognised as the national preventive mechanism for Nigeria. The national preventive mechanism was established under the optional protocol to the convention against torture which every country is asked to get an independent body that could be monitoring cases of detention like the prisons and police cells across the country. I believe it is the way the commission has carried out its duties independently that gave the government of Nigeria the confidence to say yes, NHRC should handle the responsibility. The condition of the Correctional facilities in the country is pitiable in the sense that the facilities are majorly over crowded. However, our study shows that whereas the correctional facilities in the city centres are overcrowded, the one in the hinterland are not overcrowded. Curiously, the crime rates of the cities are more than the crime rates in the hinterland. Also, because of proximity to where the trials will take place, there is a tendency to relocate prisoners near to where the courts would sit. Because there are few courts in the hinterlands, that makes it not a good place to try inmates especially, those awaiting trial. Now, once there is congestion, everything scatters. If there is a congestion, that means that a cell that is supposed to take 20 people will take 40. And once that happens, there is going to be challenge in bed space, cleanliness, environmental issues, etc. Once the issue of congestion is sorted out, the livelihood of prison inmates will improve. Once any prison is congested, you are open to diseases, infections and all manner of sicknesses. The issue about prison is not all about punishment. It is about rehabilitation, to make people try to change their way of life and giving them another opportunity to come back and contribute to the society. Unfortunately, anybody who goes to the prison in Nigeria usually comes back worse and with the feeling that the society has not treated him/her well.

Q- What is the way forward?

A- There has to be intentional attention to the prisons. We have been paying lip service to it. Recently, the federal government built some standard prisons in Kano State and one or two other locations. That is how it should be in every state. Once you do that and the decongestion issue is handed, then it becomes very easy to deal with other issues. However, we also have the corruption aspect that is making the prisons to be overcrowded. A lot of people awaiting trail have no business in the prison. However, corruption in the police and the lower judiciary is responsible for that. Some people who are not supposed to be arrested are arrested. Somebody is expecting you to pay him money before you can get your freedom. Once they charge you to court, they will say that they are still doing investigation and before you know it, this investigation can go on for another six months or even one year. As long as such trend keeps going on, the prisons will keep on housing people they are not supposed to house and people who are supposed to be there for one month stay for one year. The commission has been visiting the prisons to make recommendations to appropriate authorities. However, if they are still carrying out their investigation, it’s so difficult to say that you shouldn’t investigate anybody. The constitution does not allow anybody to do that. The law is also part of the challenge. The most valid way is, if it is the court that says, you cannot bring in any evidence, you have to discharge this man. On our part, we have made recommendations on people whose case files are missing, who have been detained for several years without being charged to court, some in prison without record. Nobody knows what they are doing there. It is like an abduction. Somebody is dumped there with no record. So, when we discover cases like that, we write immediately and something is done. These problems can be curbed if the prosecuting agencies do the right thing. The police do a lot of guess work and is not good enough.

Q- As the Executive Secretary of the National Human Rights Commission, what would you want to be remembered for after you have served out your term?

A- My dream is to have a Nigerian society where there is some level of respect for the dignity of the human person in the way people are treated by the law enforcement agencies. We have been struggling at police reforms. Practices like arrest and detention, practices like taking people to court, being investigated so that you don’t just clamp on the right of the people. These are the areas that touch on many Nigerians. These are the areas that are increasing prisons population. The areas that make people feel angry with the system. If you look at the people that joined the ENDSARS protest, they were people with personal experiences with law enforcement agencies at check points, illegal arrest and torture. These are people who felt aggrieved with the system. I want to contribute to peace in the country by resolving all these conflicts so that the number of people that are angry with the government would be highly reduced. When we solve all the small problems, it helps the government to be stable. Once there is lack of peace, there won’t be progress.